conclusion:
-education is crucial to masses .
- knowing your history , has people/group/country is crucial.

danger:
the ghetto pattern:
being tough “oriented” history , and then not be able to relate to the society ,being stuck in a ghetto , therefor confirming only that “oriented” history has being truth.

by ghetto , i mean ANY concentration of folks with the same origin/lifestyle/background.

i don’t have a solution , yet i think it all come down to forgiveness:

can we forgive people past behavior, leading their offspring to an “oriented” history? can we forgive those offspring for not being able to ,or have the will to , see beyond established behavior?
Pavlov would be laughing at all this for sure!

plain and simple.

but like you are saying , it shouldn’t be use has excuses …
and looking at your statement saying white folks subtracting themselves from the equation brings a new concept to me. i never attack that issue from that angle….

being white , it is a direct blow.

but you are absolutly right…
quote:
‘Therefore attempts to remove white people from the equation are usually the tactical domain of white people themselves eager to escape their own responsibility in this’

so i think this applies to me…that i liked it or not!

this is getting more and more interesting..

This is not a logical approach because it sets people up to fail. Incorrect diagnosis of a problem may lead to the correct solution but that is highly improbable. Using history as a tool to understand the Black condition in the US doesn’t absolve any individual or community from responsibility. But like any problem, context is crucial. Therefore attempts to remove white people from the equation are usually the tactical domain of white people themselves eager to escape their own responsibility in this, or Black people eager to please white people, or ignorant Black people (and often a combination of the last two).

concerning collective identities , my point may not have been that clear.
i was trying to refer to the ‘us’ when people are getting offended by jokes/comments over stereotypes , witch i still consider harmless to the individuals ,since they are aim at masses..
i think the difference between stating stereotypes and racism was clear in my previous post ,so i don’t think i’ll go over that again.

now obviously , civilization’s motar is the collective identities.
i just wanted to highlight how some people will fall on the ‘us’ to get offended when they really shouldn’t been. they may get offended because it is hard for people to admit having some behavior , especially when they are blown out of proportion for humoristic puposes…

the weakness i’m refering too is basically the lack of strengh that some individual have over facing what they are ,good and bad side/habit…
then they will fall back on the ,us’ to cover their asses… in order to don’t have to admit certain behavior has their own ,but a behavior of a whole communities…giving them the ‘right’ to be offended…
because at the individual level ,getting offended over such comments/jokes will be improper ,or a sign of ‘narrow-mindness’, witch they won’t admit to.

no to answer your ‘we’ and ‘us’ has a framework. you got that right.
and i fully agree that it is the ‘drive’ needed in a society.
collective identities should never be used has a shield , to protect individuals from facing the music…

I would have to question your characterization of collective identities as a bad ‘pattern’. Do you prefer individuality as opposed to collective ideas? As you said, there is a language barrier, but if that is what you mean, I’ll have to kindly disagree. The cult of individuality that has become so popular with the advance of neoliberal thought I see as something akin to a societal cancer.

It disintegrates the power of people leaving only the power of the wealthy elite, who then control the people. ‘We’ and ‘us’ are very important frameworks to think within. The history of the civilization is a history of class war. The rich vs us. Think about the things you like about your society and ask yourself where did those things come from. I think you’ll find that they came from that ‘pattern’ you mention. Collective struggle, not individuality, can be thanked for almost all that we love about society.

1- to marcg/cheddar: i think you are reffering to anti-black stereotype while cheddar is reffering to stereotype in general… if it’s the case , then but of you are actually right. i just don’t think you are reffering to the same ’stereotype’.

2- i’ve learn thaat having to back yourself with ANY ‘us’ to back your oppinion/lifestyle is a sign of weakness. so too but of you:
have the strengh of your OWN opinions.

now ,concerning those comments/jokes/whatever:
if people get offended ,still ,by any type of jokes or comments , it is because they are STILL STUCK on the ‘US’ patern..(see point 2)

yes we may rattke over carrying racism in those comments etc… but:
i think racism starts from within. it is insidious ,hidious and immoral. but it is starting from within. not from someone who is stating some GENERAL stereotypes…

Thanks for that contribution.